Curse

Xenomortis · Sep 20, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Wait, are you talking about a human run ER-Prot? If so, then yes, GoS and Life Attunement rock and are probably core skills.

Human bars Carinae.
Hero bars are another matter and they have a lot more room to fit things like Aegis in.

Not sure on the Prot henchmen thing, but I understand the justification. I typically have a second copy of Aegis and PS on another hero anyway, so I bring the healer henchmen. That, and I find prot henchmen are terrible at energy management.

Jeydra · Sep 21, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

//jeydra I'm trying to stop this from getting nerfed I love it so much =//////

Lol

I appreciate it, although I think Ensign is right in that ER isn't going to get nerfed - it doesn't appear in dedicated farming builds.

Two things ...

@Carinae Dragonblood - just a few days ago there was a Gyala Hatchery ZQ, and I tried to do it with a player offensive character + the henchmen Monks. What I didn't know was that the henchmen carried Blessed Light and Life Sheath = no bar push = dead.

I think the same applies to your case. ER Elementalists don't have strong bar push. If you're using Prot henchmen with them, great, but you'd have even less bar push. I don't think that's a good idea.

@Ensign - don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I change my mind about GDW. The skill is too awesome to give up. There's only one exception. When the team has no physicals, I'd keep Shield Guardian. Heroes / henchmen / even players wanding can't compare to them casting and you using the slot on something else.

Carinae · Sep 21, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

@Jeydra - Gyala is Seaguard Gita and Sister Tai. Gita has Aegis and SB, Tai has BL, which is a red bar pusher. You were running ER-Prot yourself? If so, something is wrong. Three healers should be more than enough. Do you have any other party 'prots' like WY or SY?

Especially in HM, Prot >>>>>> Red Bars Go Up.

Jeydra · Sep 21, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Three healers is, eh. I was running Assassin's Promise; if I had ER Prot I'd use just one henchman healer. Blessed Light isn't a good red bar pusher (want WoH). I had plenty of party-wide defense, not to mention plenty of meat shields, but plain no red bar. Even with perfect prot, red bars move up and down, and Blessed Light is such a bad red bar pusher.

Do you survive on one hero ER Prot + one of the healer henchmen, or do you use both healer henchmen?

Carinae · Sep 22, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Agree on BL, but it's better than nothing and should be sufficient. You wiped? Or just couldn't protect the turtles?

One ER-prot and the prot-hench only. Infuse and DK and whatever the prot-hench carries to push red bars seems plenty for me.

Both my Necro and Sin have done it that way, with no self-heals. Necro had WY (on a hero) and my sin packs SY. Both also had minions.

EDIT: I'm also running Orders. So between that and Aegis and whatever point enchants we carry, we manage a rather strong DK.

Malician · Sep 24, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Ensign - don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I change my mind about GDW. The skill is too awesome to give up. There's only one exception. When the team has no physicals, I'd keep Shield Guardian. Heroes / henchmen / even players wanding can't compare to them casting and you using the slot on something else.

GDW really requires playing smart (without shield guardian, you don't always have a spell ready to cast to recover from infuse). I end up using Glyph of Swiftness on prot spirit whenever I can even with SG.

It also depends on the competency of the physicals. Doesn't help much if you've got a retard warrior covered in tanking skills with single-target damaging.

I'll go SG if my PUG is empty of support. Another spell to precast means a couple more mini AOE heals going off at the beginning of the fight + extra mopup heals during the fight itself (while everything else is recharging) without having to infuse.

Very helpful when the HB Heal Party spam monk runs out of mana shortly in. I enjoy replying to repeated anguish pings of of 0/50 energy by switching to my high-energy set and pinging 130/130 or so..

I would always use GDW with a good group. Love the way it aids momentum and smooths friction so the party can just roll through.

Ensign · Sep 28, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

I do, in fact, read this forum on occasion.

I try to make Shield Guardian work when I do log in and play, I really do. It just very rarely gets cast, and its frequency of use drops whenever I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing; it never displaces a Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, or Infuse. But in garbage time, you have situations where you *want* to do something, but if you don't have something in the GDW slot that's semi-spammable and multipurpose you just kinda stand there and it feels awful, especially if you're trying to keep Life Attunement on everyone.

That isn't necessarily bad if there's something really strong to put there instead, where you'd just accept that sometimes you aren't casting for a bit and losing a bit of flexibility on maintaining a bunch of enchants, but there isn't. So if for whatever reason you don't want Great Dwarf Weapon, Shield Guardian may be weak, but I haven't found anything better. The only thing that's really come close is Vigorous Spirit, but that requires a bunch of changes to attributes and the like that makes it a lot more marginal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

(without shield guardian, you don't always have a spell ready to cast to recover from infuse).

Spirit Bond?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

It also depends on the competency of the physicals. Doesn't help much if you've got a retard warrior covered in tanking skills with single-target damaging.

Retards with Order of the Vampire, Strength of Honor, and Great Dwarf Weapon on them do tons of damage. You can have a Defy Pain Warrior with 9 in his weapon mastery and he'll beast things.

I've done that on multiple occasions now. Instead of taking hero/hench, bring a Necro and Monk hero and grab 5 random melees in whatever area you want to do. It works amazingly well, and it's fun to see PUGs working harmoniously. *grins*

elk · Sep 28, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

@ Ensign - Based on your suggestion for the random PuG melee train, how does the build go and where are the attribute splits?

I'm assuming the SoH is on the ER bar therefore life attunement is dropped or is it maintained as well?

I recall reading previously that you felt glyph of swiftness wasn't a necessity, therefore is that the dropped skill? Although I figured if you had an upkeep of 10 enchants, this would be required (again assuming both SoH and life attunement)?

attribute split?

Infuse
Spirit Bond
Prot Spirit
Ether Renewal
Aura of Restoration
Strength of Honor
Great Dwarf Weapon
?

Now based on your hero suggestion, what recommendations do you have for the hero bars? Is the Mo just bar push? (I've read in other threads your a fan of the smite support Mo but can't see it being enough to offset?). For the 'Nec' bar, do you suggest a primary Nec or a D/N variant similar to the one in the paragon/ Racthoh hero thread?

I'd be interested in hearing your ideas,builds and att splits for both hero's and the ER. Sounds like it might be fun to scare up a mess of Wa's and take them out for a walk.

elk

Xenomortis · Sep 28, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by elk

I'm assuming the SoH is on the ER bar therefore life attunement is dropped or is it maintained as well?

I would assume SoH was on the Necro hero, assuming the Nec had OotV. Unless of course the monk was a smiter.
Although with 5 melee attackers, it would have to go on the ER bar to keep it on all 5 (unless you killed quick enough for Soul Reaping to keep up).

Zodiac Meteor · Sep 28, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by elk

attribute split?

Infuse
Spirit Bond
Prot Spirit
Ether Renewal
Aura of Restoration
Strength of Honor
Great Dwarf Weapon
?

That does not work well as your taking to much out for SoH. Using points that requires 14+ energy storage and spending the rest in 3 other categories hurts the build.

If you want to buff melee, I suggest going support than heal.

For support with 2 monks I go:

16 energy, 10/8 smite, 8/10 prot
ER
aura of resto
Ele lord/Judges insight
Prot spirit
spirit bond/shield guardian
Great Dwarf weapon
Strength and honor
Succor

Judges insight gives +20% armor penetration, the long recharge makes me leave it sometimes but if we are going against undead it does insane amount of help.
Succor is a monks friend. When ever I run this build I'm not a primary monk. But when I use it monks seem to like it, so I kept it as a stander on my buffer bar.
The rest explains itself.

Ensign · Sep 28, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I used to put Strength of Honor on the Necromancer, but then they nerfed the crap out of Masochism, so that doesn't work so well now. So now you're stuck putting it on the Smiter. The Smiter has Strength of Honor, plus Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight. Elite is Signet of Removal. Take Mantra of Inscriptions and 3 energy management signets. The Necromancer gets stacked with Extinguish, Aegis, and a bunch of expensive stuff. If you only have 4 melees you can run it straight, with 5 you should Succor the Smiter from your Necro.

You can't really afford to put Strength of Honor on the Ether Renewal guy, the points in Prot are too valuable.

You can drop the Glyph of Swiftness on the Ether Renewal guy if you want the slot, but I think you need to run a Superior Energy Storage rune for 16 ES in that case. Your Infuse gets a lot weaker and you can't go into the 8 Life Attunement plan as readily in that case though.

Jeydra · Oct 06, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I try to make Shield Guardian work when I do log in and play, I really do. It just very rarely gets cast, and its frequency of use drops whenever I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing; it never displaces a Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, or Infuse. But in garbage time, you have situations where you *want* to do something, but if you don't have something in the GDW slot that's semi-spammable and multipurpose you just kinda stand there and it feels awful, especially if you're trying to keep Life Attunement on everyone.

That isn't necessarily bad if there's something really strong to put there instead, where you'd just accept that sometimes you aren't casting for a bit and losing a bit of flexibility on maintaining a bunch of enchants, but there isn't. So if for whatever reason you don't want Great Dwarf Weapon, Shield Guardian may be weak, but I haven't found anything better. The only thing that's really come close is Vigorous Spirit, but that requires a bunch of changes to attributes and the like that makes it a lot more marginal.

Lol when I run Shield Guardian it gets cast a lot - comparable to Spirit Bond / Prot Spirit (and sometimes even more actually since it cools down faster). It's just that the effect isn't very strong. In fact, truth be told its effect seems almost entirely negligible; its only purpose is to help you maintain your enchantments / Infuse more.

I've been thinking about using a second maintained enchantment in that slot when GDW isn't necessary / wanted. The obvious candidate is whichever of Life Attunement / Vital Blessing you aren't already maintaining; you get the best of both worlds. If you're willing to work with -5 energy degen you can maintain 8 of your selected enchantment (say LA) on everyone and the other (VB) on yourself. Otherwise you mix and manage, e.g. whoever has DP gets Vital Blessing while those with morale boosts don't get LA.

I tried it in Shards of Orr just now and it works pretty nicely; you pick whichever enchantment you need at that time. You also get both enchantments on yourself at the same time: permanent +4 to energy gain (= 16 per cast, at least: Aura of Resto / ER / VB / LA), as well as the benefits the two enchantments give you. Against an area where Chiblains didn't remove all enchantments in the blink of an eye, having both enchantments would be a great cover against DP.

Thoughts?

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Thanks for the ER bar Ensign, it ownz. I put Breath (the dwarf HP) in place of GDW when moar party healing is needed.

Ensign · Oct 10, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol when I run Shield Guardian it gets cast a lot - comparable to Spirit Bond / Prot Spirit (and sometimes even more actually since it cools down faster). It's just that the effect isn't very strong. In fact, truth be told its effect seems almost entirely negligible; its only purpose is to help you maintain your enchantments / Infuse more.

It's mostly the maintain enchantments part since you can just press the button in garbage time to keep the energy up. It helps a bit for Infuse as a follow-up to Spirit Bond to get you back to full, but in turbo-infuse situations I'm perfectly happy to Spirit Bond / Infuse / Spirit Bond / Infuse all day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I've been thinking about using a second maintained enchantment in that slot when GDW isn't necessary / wanted...You also get both enchantments on yourself at the same time

I like that idea, you make up for not having a spell you can throw randomly by having the extra enchantment all the time.

That also gives me the thought of running Vital Blessing in the Glyph of Swiftness slot and running a superior Energy Storage rune; you net a bunch of health on yourself, get another enchantment to spread around, and should be fine for the few seconds Ether Renewal is down...I'll have to try it next time I log in.

Arrogant Bastard · Oct 10, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Those few seconds that you don't ER up (without the glyph and using superior rune) can kill your energy if your team is under pressure if you maintain too many enchantments.

While doing a few HM dungeons without glyph of swiftness, I've found that 4-6 maintained enchantments is optimal, unless you want to mash buttons more than you already do while still having a chance of losing all energy in longer engagements.

You could always cancel the enchantments when ER runs out during battle, but that sort of defeats the purpose of maintaining them (recasting them mid-battle after getting ER back up will mean you wont be healing/protoing your team, and if you allies don't have the enchantments then why did you bring them?).

I still think dropping the glyph is worth only having 4-6 enchantments up as you can bring GDW or Breath of the Great Dwarf in addition to infuse/PS/SB/x.

Jeydra · Oct 11, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That also gives me the thought of running Vital Blessing in the Glyph of Swiftness slot and running a superior Energy Storage rune; you net a bunch of health on yourself, get another enchantment to spread around, and should be fine for the few seconds Ether Renewal is down...I'll have to try it next time I log in.

There's something glaringly obvious about this that I (amazingly) didn't catch first time ...

VITAL BLESSING FULLY COMPENSATES FOR THE -75 HEALTH LOSS FROM THE SUPERIOR RUNE!! And not only does it fully compensate, it adds close to an extra 100 health as well!!

I've got to try this ... there's just one reservation. As Arrogant Bastard pointed out, it's kinda hard to maintain 9 enchantments without Glyph of Swiftness, so you will have to maintain fewer. What are you going to maintain? Vital Blessing and Life Attunement on yourself of course, that's why you have that. VB ought to go too onto anyone with high DP. What about LA?

No matter how I look at it, it seems there's simply a maintained enchantment overload. Without the Glyph I might (off the top of my head) go with 6-7 maintained enchantments maximum. Since you're in a situation where GDW isn't wanted / necessary, chances are you're in a team full of casters, all of whom could use Life Attunement. 6-7 maintained enchantments isn't going to be enough to use them both to full effect. Pity, although I'll have to give it a try to see how the gains counterbalance the losses.

Ensign · Oct 11, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Ok, so dropping the Glyph of Swiftness for Vital Blessing is awesome in every single way imaginable. The only real drawback is that there is a point in a fight after the first ER drops when you're vulnerable and can't power mash on Infuse; you get 25 seconds of combat ER without the Glyph but closer to 45 with it (only glyphing the first ER). But you don't have to cast the first ER so early, and it's better to slow roll it a bit in general, so the drop point is probably closer to 30-35 seconds into the fight vs 45 with the Glyph.

Besides that difference, the Vital version is better in every way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I've got to try this ... there's just one reservation. As Arrogant Bastard pointed out, it's kinda hard to maintain 9 enchantments without Glyph of Swiftness, so you will have to maintain fewer.

It's not hard at all. You only have ~7 seconds where you aren't gaining any energy from Ether Renewal (time from it dropping to it shooting back up from a 1/4 cast spell), and an 95 energy pool (30 Base + 16*3 ES + 12 Focus + 5 Spear). There's no trouble at all maintaining 14 enchantments through that downtime if your Ether Renewal isn't shattered off. If it is, well, you're at 723 health; cash in up to 70 of it (dropping you to 653 health minimum) for another +14 energy, kicking you up yo 109; that should be more than enough of a buffer to maintain that many enchants. If you get really desperate you can maintain 13 at 124 max energy and still have your enchanting part ready to go.

Arrogant Bastard · Oct 12, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

On another note, what kind of focus is optimal?

20/20 proto seems unnecessary since the spells should have low cast/recharge to begin with.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 12, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

You can use a defensive set, high energy set and your good.
Fight with the defensive.
Switch to high energy after being rezed/energy spiked etc.

By the way for ArenaNet to know Ele healers suck. I can't beat any mission with it, it's simply a fun build to have but it won't replace a monk, ever.

Ensign · Oct 12, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

On another note, what kind of focus is optimal?

+30 Health with either 20% fast Energy Storage recharge or +5 armor while enchanted.

Keep a +15/-1 focus to put with the spear as well as an in-between high set you can swap to without losing the enchanting part. I like having a shield with the enchanting part on it as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

By the way for ArenaNet to know Ele healers suck. I can't beat any mission with it, it's simply a fun build to have but it won't replace a monk, ever.

How do I get Jesus Beam on my Ele? How can you truly win without Jesus Beam?